Cover of End of the SpearTake for instance the case of Azariah Southworth. Seeing as how I do not have cable, I have never seen this person, but only recently discovered this story. The article says this, '"I know I will be cut off from many within the Christian community, and if so, then they didn't get the point of the life of Christ. I believe by me living my life honestly and authentically now, I am able to be a better person and a better Christian. We all know there are so many other gay people in the Christian industry; they're just all scared. I was scared, but now I'm no longer afraid," notes Southworth.'
So, he thinks he can continue to be a homosexual and a Christian? Where does he get this idea from? Another issue which has prompted this post is from this past weekend. Long-time Christian music singer Ray Boltz has admitted that he's gay. The article says this, '"If this is the way God made me, then this is the way I’m going to live...I really feel closer to God because I no longer hate myself." Those were the words of Ray Boltz in an interview with the Washington Blade about his decision to engage in homosexuality.'
I've been in conversation with a couple of homosexuals who claim some form of Christianity over at InterstateQ.com. The conversation, needless to say, has not been very helpful. There is also this Equality Ride from Soulforce which sends young "Christian" gay people to Christian colleges and Universities every year in an effort to bring out those who are gay at those schools (my opinion). I believe that only creates more division and strife. If homosexual "Christians" feel like they are ostracized and hated, then why are they attempting to be so divisive. They point to the love of Christ. We should love each other, they say. I say yes, but I also say, "why do you hate so much?" The Christian community has not shown much love of Christ, I will admit.
Take for instance the flap over the movie, "The End of the Spear," which cast openly gay actor Chad Allen. Two different sides emerged on the issue. I believe that what Every Tribe Entertainment said in this article, was what Christianity should be about.
'The executives at Every Tribe stood by Mr. Allen. Jim Hanon, the director, said he was by far the best actor for the role. "If we make films according to what the Bible says is true, it's incumbent upon us to live that," he said. "We disagree with Chad about homosexuality, but we love him and worked with him, and we feel that's a Biblical position."'
We, as Christians, should show more love and grace to the homosexual community while still acknowledging that homosexuality is a sin. We cannot deny the words of scripture which say this,
(1Co 6:9 ESV) Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality,
(1Co 6:10 ESV) nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.
That's not to say, that we don't struggle with these sins, but I do not believe that we can be openly exhibiting these sins and still continue in Christianity. The next verse in this passage should be encouraging to us who have struggled with sin and want the grace and forgiveness.
(1Co 6:11 ESV) And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.
(1Co 6:12 ESV) "All things are lawful for me," but not all things are helpful. "All things are lawful for me," but I will not be enslaved by anything.
(1Co 6:13 ESV) "Food is meant for the stomach and the stomach for food"--and God will destroy both one and the other. The body is not meant for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body.
(1Co 6:14 ESV) And God raised the Lord and will also raise us up by his power.
(1Co 6:15 ESV) Do you not know that your bodies are members of Christ? Shall I then take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Never!
(1Co 6:16 ESV) Or do you not know that he who is joined to a prostitute becomes one body with her? For, as it is written, "The two will become one flesh."
(1Co 6:17 ESV) But he who is joined to the Lord becomes one spirit with him.
(1Co 6:18 ESV) Flee from sexual immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the sexually immoral person sins against his own body.
(1Co 6:19 ESV) Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own,
(1Co 6:20 ESV) for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body.
Amen to that. There is freedom in Christ. Homosexuality is a sexual sin. It is called such. We, as Christians, are called to flee from it. If you struggle with it and claim to be a Christian, I call for you to run to Christ. Ask Him for victory over it. Ray Boltz claims that God made Him that way. The Bible indicates otherwise. I'm not looking to call names or spread hate. We should love Ray Boltz and show him that the love of Christ is stronger than the love of the homosexual community. We have compromised too much. Culture does not tell us what is right and wrong. The Word of God does. Come to Jesus for your freedom. Not those who trample under foot the Word of God.
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11 comments:
If you are truly looking to have genuine conversation with a Christians who happens to be gay, please feel free to drop me a line. However your use of quotations around the term Christian as gay “Christians” is extremely judgemental. You are not the person that determine the feelings of my heart and soul that will be only Elohim.
Why is homosexuality the only sin (I don’t believe it’s sinful) that you can’t commit and be a Christian? Why was Jesus so inclusive of everyone the church shunned, but the church today is more exclusive than ever?
Jen,
I've posed this question to other homosexuals who also claim to be Christians. Can you prove from the Bible that homosexuality is not sinful?
I never said that you can't commit the sin of homosexuality and still be a Christian.
Perhaps I should clarify my position on that.
If one is in open unrepentant sin (such as homosexuality, murdering, lying, cheating, stealing, etc.), then one should really examine their faith. If I say I love my wife, but I go to the strip club every night, does that show I love my wife, or that I'm repenting of my sin? To repent of sin is to turn away from it. That's not to say that we'll slip up. Ted Haggard fell into sin, but ultimately repented of it and has turned away from it, to the best of my knowledge.
I don't believe Jesus was inclusive. He loved those that the church shunned so that they repented of their sin and turned away from it. However, he still shunned sin.
Again, I ask why do you believe that homosexuality is not sinful? I'm curious about this, as I cannot understand this, since the Bible clearly states otherwise.
Btw, you're right, only God can determine the heart, but the outward actions also determine what's in the heart. The following verses clarify what it means to say we have no sin:
(1Jn 1:8 ESV) If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
(1Jn 1:9 ESV) If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
(1Jn 1:10 ESV) If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If homosexuality is a sin, and one is outwardly acting homosexually, but professes to be a Christian, it is my duty as a Christian to confront that brother/sister and ask them to repent. If they continue to not do so, then they are to be treated as a non-Christian. I know that's not popular in today's culture, but that's Biblical.
You're free to disagree with me, but that's what I believe from my study of scriptures.
Can I ask if you have seen the website http://inclusiveorthodoxy.com/? There is a bible study there that I find particularly helpful as a starting point for these conversations. It is very concise, but the scholarship is sound, and the author’s love of and fidelity to scripture comes through with every word. I am curious to know your thoughts on his conclusions about the Romans passage in particular, and the meaning of the words “arsenokoitai” and “malakos.”
I agree with you that Paul is denouncing something as counter to God’s will… but is it possible that what he is denouncing is something entirely different from the love and commitment that characterize the relationships of most gay Christians? If it is even ambiguous, isn’t the proper path to withhold judgment until further study, prayer and observation shows what sort of fruit is born from the relationship, and from her acceptance of herself?
We know what sort of fruit is borne from the decision to uniformly condemn same-sex love as sinful - depression, suicide, youth cast out of Christian homes only to make their way to major cities, seeking tolerance but too often finding only the cold comfort of the streets… prostituting themselves to supposedly upstanding Christian husbands who could never accept their own homosexual orientation because of those same teachings, and yet feel compelled to express that sexuality in dark corners. These kids are real - I have met them… and I have seen the men who buy them. God weeps for them all.
If there is any chance this suffering is unnecessary, then shouldn’t we do all we can to leave the judgment to God, lest we are in error here on earth? The shameful legacy of Christian complicity in slavery stands as witness to the fallibility of people seeking to serve God. We should do justice, love mercy, and above all, walk humbly with our lord.
I am one of those gay Christians of whom you speak, and I have done much work with Soulforce and with the guys over at InterstateQ. Our motives are sincere, as is our love of God. Come, let us reason together, that the body may be in greater unity, and the world around us may see Jesus in how we resolve our differences. Feel free to write me anytime at CaseyPick@gmail.com. God bless.
Chris,
Thanks for the post. I found it today. I'd love to have a more thorough conversation with you. You and I've hardly had any talking time at my blog. Seems as though something's hit a nerve with Adam (he's a regular reader of mine.) I address some of that in my latest (only my second) comment on the thread you referred to here. I live in Charlotte, NC, only an hour and a half from you. We should try and see if we can't meet up sometime and discuss this in a peaceful and relaxing, face-to-face, Christian brother-to-brother way.
Matt Comer
336-391-9528
matt@interstateq.com
Casey,
While I understand what the author is trying to do in the inclusiveorthodoxy.com article, I do not find his scholarship very sound. I find that he went into his study looking for a way out. He broke the first rule of proper hermeneutics, and that is to not let the scripture speak for itself. You know, I probably would not use the example of Sodom to begin with as there was much more going on with Sodom than just homosexuality. They were just unrepentant sinners. As far as the terms malakos and arsenokoitēs, the first one is translated as "Of uncertain affinity; soft, that is, fine (clothing); figuratively a catamite: - effeminate, soft.
" and the second is this, "From G730 and G2845; a sodomite: - abuser of (that defile) self with mankind." but literally means "male"-"bedding" from the two other Greek words. The author barely touches on this, except to say it only referred to male prostitutes. I don't think I can buy that argument, especially since the author is focusing on antiquated translations such as the RSV and the KJV and dynamic equivalent translations such as the NIV. I prefer the more literal such as the ESV and the NASB, which both translate the terms as effiminate and homosexual. The NKJV (also literal) says homosexuals, and sodomites. Is it ambiguous to say that the passage is talking about something else? I don't know. From my plain study of scripture, I would say that Paul is denouncing homosexuality. He's also addressing the Corinthian church, which had a whole slew of problems, including false speaking in tongues, leadership problems, men sleeping with their step-mothers, etc. But I will say, that I do not agree with Justin Cannon's hermeneutical principles.
On another note, I pretty much agree with the rest of your post, for the most part. I think the problem stems from not preaching the truth in love. The Church has been so bad about condemning sin, but doesn't do it in a way that brings people to Christ. That is perhaps why there is so much suicide, fear, anxiety, and prostitution among these males who think they have to act on these feelings because society says it's okay. In my opinion, the Church should be offering counseling to those who feel they have homosexual tendencies. Instead, they do condemn it as wrong and shun those who commit the acts. I think that Christ would be ashamed at how the Church has acted in lots of circumstances. We have not shown much love as commanded in Matthew 5 and 6.
Matt,
Thanks for the note. I considered replying again, but I'm not sure that I should, for the simple reason that it doesn't seem that Adam wants to have a decent conversation. I think what sparked me even writing on your blog was the fact that he responded in the first place in a way that I felt was disrespectful and continues to be disrespectful. He's right, in some respects. I am a hypocrite. But we all are at times. It's only through my relationship with Christ that I can overcome that. And yes, these issues are hard to talk through over internet blogs.
"for the simple reason that it doesn't seem that Adam wants to have a decent conversation."
Perhaps it is that Adam has been so hurt by our fellow Christians, he no longer has any patience for what, to him, might seem as the slightest condemnatory statement. Fortunately, I think you understand that and I'm happy you do.
"That is perhaps why there is so much suicide, fear, anxiety, and prostitution among these males who think they have to act on these feelings because society says it's okay. In my opinion, the Church should be offering counseling to those who feel they have homosexual tendencies."
Unfortunately, Chris, these reparative therapies (or "ex-gay" therapies) have, more often than not, caused more harm, more condemnation and more damage, despite what their creators originally intended.
What bothers me most, as a Christian, is when people belittled my life-long experience with Christ simply because I'm gay (using quote marks around the word Christian is one of those belittling things). I know I believe in God. I know God exists. I've felt him strongly before and feel him strongly even know. All these despite being raised in a church where my pastor taught gays should die. I should be running, screaming from the church, but I stayed because I know that God would see me through anything. My testimony is a pretty powerful one and when it is belittled I feel hurt, deeply.
Will God condemn those who have been so hurt by His followers they turn away? They've turned away without a fully informed decision... turned away only because God's followers decided instead to act like the outside, condemning, exclusionary world.
Will God eternally condemn people like me -- a person who struggles his whole life to know and be with God and tries to deal with and live with what and who I am? Will God turn His back on a person who daily confesses his gratitude and love for Christ and his salvation? I don't think so.
I think you get it, sort of... but a lot of people don't: A lot of people (the overwhelming majority) are so quick to judge and to condemn and to cast others out of the church. Who then is guilty of the greater sin? How dare a mere human make a decision on who is worthy or unworthy?
I hope my offer to meet up and chat about this, face-to-face and brother-to-brother is still on the table.
As Lord, Jesus bases and defines ALL sin as lack of love (Matthew 22:36-40). Such obvious sins as theft, murder and adultery are unloving because each has a victim, someone not receiving love.
Please tell me, who is the unloved victim in a homosexual relationship? Neither is a victim, neither is unloved. Where is the hurt? Who could bring suit against the “sinner”? What Gospel writer or Bible prophet claimed homosexuality is sinful? (Jesus didn't.) These are not rhetorical questions; they are unanswered by those who refuse God's grace and live by working the law.
It is noteworthy that Gay people employ themselves in loving professions like medicine, education and the ministry. However, some Christians evidently work in the Biblical judicial system.
Certainly if God didn't want men to have sex with other men, He would have said “Man shall not lie with man PERIOD (Leviticus 18:22, 21:13). God wanted Moses to eradicate rampant idolatry in the Jewish nation. That whole “ . . . as with a woman” thing condemns straight men pretending to make it with a woman, such as during idol worship. Paul explains it further when putting down the straight Romans (1:26-28 ) for “leaving their natural relations” (i.e.... as with a woman) and having idolatrous sex with men. Gay men are attracted to other men by definition and by God. They can only imagine what sex
“ . . . as with a woman” would be like.
“Homosexual” was coined about 1865, so any Bible translation since then that uses a form of that word is a lie that needs to be emended. ( The King James version is honest.) It premiered in a 1946 English Bible and continues to condemn loving Gays.
We Christians want to avoid sin that offends God. We do not unilaterally harm God but we do wreck our love relationship with Him by sinning. Created in His loving image, we fail to live up to expectations. Without Jesus and His deal to make it all right, we would be planning our new residence in Hell. But we have taken Jesus as Savior and Lord and He keeps us in His Father's loving will.
What is the most love one can show another sinner? Offer them an eternity with God through the redemptive cross of Jesus. Instead of judging them, shouldn’t Christians be telling those “sinful” homosexuals that Jesus died for their sins? The stumbling block is that Gays do not want to affiliate with unloving and judgmental Christians. Know Jesus, know love. No Jesus, no love.
Sorry I have not written in several days, but I've been quite busy. I just want to thank all of you who have responded. It has been quite a decent dialogue. I do want to apologize if I offended anyone by putting Christian in quotation marks. It was not my intention to offend, but only to express what I feel is a theological truth. I see that there are some strong feelings on this issue, though those feelings have not been expressed so much here.
I have a couple of more articles to read on this subject, one from someone at Soulforce, and another from somebody at Wheaton. I hope to post links to those as well as my response.
Matt, I am trying to understand where you're coming from and I've been in churches which have expressed what you've said. I believe the church has failed in it's response to many issues. We condemn those who have AIDS when we should be the one's providing resources for those people. We condemn the homeless, when we should be the ones providing food and shelter. We condemn the Muslims, when we should be the ones sharing the Gospel with them. We do too much condemnation and not enough love. I think it would be beneficial to perhaps meet sometime and talk. Personally, I have no idea when, as I am so busy with work, family and church, but perhaps something will open up so we could meet. Thank you for you most positive responses.
You may identify as both Christian and homosexual. What you may not do is identify yourself as Christian and participate in homosexual behavior. The bible is quite clear on sexual sin and what is allowed. This does not let heterosexual Christians off the hook. You are just as guilty in your sin as your gay brothers and sisters, if you engage in any sexual practice outside of marriage.
You may argue that you were born gay, but biology does not trump sin. And yes, you may be delivered from your bondage to such a lifestyle. I can tell you this for a fact, because I myself was delivered and I know others.
God bless.
Chris,
I found you through InterstateQ... Matt is a good friend of mine from the Equality Ride.
I see that several of my colleagues have already delved into scripture with you, so I won't repeat what I know you've already heard.
But I have a couple of things to add that I'm not sure if anyone has brought up yet.
1) With regard to 1st Corinthians, I'd like to point out that the word arsenokoitēs has provided years of confusion for biblical interpreters. Yes, they are fairly sure today that the words "man" and "bed" can be interpreted to refer to same-sex conduct... but, if you were to get a bible from the late 1800's, the same word was understood to be about masturbation. The truth is that we don't know what the word means-- period.
"man" + "bed" = masturbation... kind of a stretch.
"man" + "bed" = same-sex behavior... equally questionable.
2) In every single instance, from Leviticus to Corinthians, the verses that are used to condemn same-sex behavior as sinful involve some sort of sexual deviance. In several instances, the "gay sex" that is taking place is between an adult man and a child prostitute... which is, not only pedophilia, but also prostitution. In the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, we read about tribal rape.
Point being, there is never a situation in the bible where loving, committed same-sex relationships are condemned. It is my opinion that we have misinterpreted the bible to condemn same-sex relationships-- when it is really condemning rape, incest, and pedophilia.
Some people have asked me, at this point in conversation, why the Bible wouldn't just include instances of heterosexual rape, incest, or pedophilia if God was not trying to make a specific point about same-sex behavior. This is where I point out the possibility that these verses are included specifically for LGBT people-- to give us examples of how sexual sin can invade into our lives. If instances of heterosexual sin are in the bible to provide straight people with examples of sexual morality, can we not also believe that some of these stories are in the Bible to provide same-sex couples with the same kind of guidance?
3) You have asked on multiple occasions for someone to "prove" from the Bible that homosexuality is not sin. Well, I don't claim to have "proof" of anything, but there is substantial evidence to say that David and Jonathan were lovers-- although this is a debate to which we will never see a conclusion. But, if you read the texts of I and II Samuel closely... there is enough evidence, at least, to make you stop and wonder. And... if this is true, then we would have a very clear and viable stance to say that (as you were asking) the Bible supports loving same-sex relationships. Because, after all, David was "a man after God's own heart".
I'm not asking you to change your beliefs... I know firsthand that religion is very important and very tightly-knit into the fabric of a person's soul. I am, however, requesting that you take a little time... as someone with all the capabilities to do so... and study the texts that discuss same-sex behavior more closely. There is, at the very least, reasonable evidence to support the idea that same-sex relationships ARE a part of God's plan for human intimacy.
For me specifically, I have to tell you that I had fallen away from God after being condemned by many Christians while participating in the Ride. It was my fiance, Katie, who helped me find my way back to a relationship with God through her own spiritual journey... and through our relationship, which is (in my opinion) nothing short of a gift from God.
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